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#61 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 572 weeks ago
Oh goddammit Intercourse, you are so fucking reaching on those statements. You're concluding Axl's statements regarding Slash BEFORE the breakup as definitive proof of his opinion.
Jesus, what way do you guys want to play this? Yoy guys bash every other band member about their revisionist theories and fried junkie brains not remembering anything and here I post quotes from the then and now sober lead singer of GNR that show completely different takes on what actaully happened and its still wrong?
If you were in court and you tried this shit you'd be demolished.
Young Axl said that GN'R would never turn into what old Axl turned it into--yeah and old Axl never thought his friend (Izzy) would tuck and run when the heat got turned up.
Maybe you think "the heat" was a positive thing but the heat the ex-members describe was anything but..
"What was the last straw that made you leave GNR?
Izzy: After the first leg of the UYI tour, Axl wanted to make me sign a contract which meant that I was less involved and less paid. I couldn't believe it. This contract was coming from someone I grew up with for fuck's sake. We always considered GNR as a best friend band, and now Axl was telling me:" now we are doing business." Why should I carry on? Where was
the fun? That was the last drop. But other things happen before like in Donnington where to kids died during the show. What the fuck is that? Is that rock n' roll? To read in an airport newspaper that kid died during one of your gig? What the fun to play in stadium every night and to start a riot in Saint-Louis because your singer is fucked up? You come to a point when none of all this is funny anymore. Axl wasn't doing his front man job anymore. quote]
I have said it to you guys over and over again, I'm don't personally "love" either of these men enough to be in their camp (personally I don't understand how people can get so annoyed about people they don't even know) but read the shit above and the end of GNR was because all sides were out to lunch. You choose to believe Axl was somehow living in a quasi rock music / wrestling storyline and doing the right thing, I'd rather take the quotes of a sober guy who was the centre of the band to use to show that the shit list was long but ends ultimately at one mans door.
Note that I have never used quotes from Slash because of your obvious leanings.
Old Axl never thought that when the going got tough that Slash would've just up and quit the band. Do you know what that fucking means? Do you have any clue? A band literally is a marriage. That's like a wife, out of the blue, coming and asking for a divorce, and citing NO reason,]
Slash cited No reason? Really? You really believe that Axl was merrily going aboiut his business being a great band husband and the evil Slash just fucked off? Come on man, you've read the books, articles etc. That's just not fucking true, its a gross over simplification at the very least.
And here we are.... if Axl's guilty, then Slash is equally if not more so guilty because as soon as they weren't working (or fucking in my analogy)--he bolted. Slash has NEVER owned up to his guilt in this--EVER.
Slash bolted? Last I read it wasn't Slash hiding out at home trying to make an album over the phone, showing up after the band had gone home with his non-member sidekick to lay down guitars on tunes the rest of the band didn't even want to record.
So if Slash is guilty? So is Duff guilty too? Matt? Robin? Bucket? Even fucking Tobias? And now Ron? I can show you a pattern of behaviour from the guitarists that came into and left this band. This is not taking sides here, its pointing at the obvious. Axl's take that its always everybody elses fault is obviously rubbing off. Did Axl ever apologise to any ex member in public for all of his shit? Ever?
And finally on this point, its not like the album flowed together rapidly after Slash, Robin, Bucket and Tobias left is it? If Axl believed he had fostered the correct environment for a healthy band, then a whole lot of pretty talented and experienced motherfuckers didn't get the memo...
Slash has never owned up to the statement he made not just qutting on Axl, but also leaving his main man Duff behind. It was not a universal decision. Slash bailed on Duff too.
This was a RNR band, not the Battle of Iwo Jima. I really don't know how to address that statement, there is nothing in any press or article to indicate that Duff was resentful of Slash for leaving. In fact, Duff seemed ok with finding a new ax man but quit himself, sober and respectfully because the band was "a dictatorship".
The only thing i've seen from you is "the power rewards of my vision". That's your smoking gun? And i'm the one in fucking dream world? Okay Fred Krueger..
Axl still fucking said it, you are free to diminish it as you wish to suit your own story but its there. And where the fuck did you get the idea that I said you're the "one in fucking dream world"?
Granted I'm starting to think that way (!!!) but until this mail showed up I'd have ranked you as one of the safest pair of hands when it came to interpreting the articles and interviews from those either directly or closely involved with the band to discuss what really happened to the old band.
And no... that's not my only smoking gun... There are lots more quotes from ex-band members, Niven etc on the matter but you've long since decided that they don't suit your version of history and are written off.
And by the way, Izzy said this about Niven..
And I find you with Alan Niven as manager, which I have met with Great White, and who was Guns' first manager!
I: Yes, yes, yes... Alan of course. Axl fired him.
M: How?
I: We weren't given any choice! It happened like that. Four members of the band were against and Axl said "All right, take him as a singer then because if he stays, I leave!" What can you do? What can you say?
M: You say: "We're four and you're alone!"
I: Yeah, but at this time, discussion had a little bit rarefied..
I know already what will happen to this quote, Izzy will be assasinated as a flake. Yet you take the story line of a man who has overseen the loss/sacking of two drummers, a bass player, SIX guitar players, and a line of the world's leading band managers and producers. When it looks and smells like shit, most of the time it is.
At the end of the day, all of us fuckers can try all the righteous indignation we like in defense of our idols but when there's a quote in written in the press from a member themselves, especially when they were sober and in control of their faculties then it fucking wipes out the ramblings of any fan here, pro or anti whomever in the band is their target simply because they were there.
You or I cannot top that no matter how true you believe your version of events to be.
So, you're welcome to your story but a story is all it is.
#62 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 572 weeks ago
Matt, Izzy, Duff and Slash do not see things the same. Their stories have changed, as Axlin pointed out..
Axl is no different:
Old Axl says that Slash didn't care if the UYI tours caused him huge personal damage. Young Axl tells Rolling Stone the guy is his closest confidant and ally on the tour and a "hand that he would never bite."
Old Axl says taking the name was because of the health issues within his band. Young Axl described the move as "the power rewards of my vision".
Young Axl says that GNR would never become the band that Old Axl turned it into.
There are many more...there were two dancing this tango.
#63 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 572 weeks ago
I'm not pissed off, this is just way more important to you than it is me and I don't have the energy for it, and I've said my peace. This whole debate it useless and kind of silly. My dad can beat up your dad kind of stuff. It wasn't trying to be snide, just if having this fantasy of how things went down is so important to you, SG and D, and I'm being serious, then go ahead and think it. Nothing is going to sway that. It doesn't matter now for any reason, other than turn into pissing contests.
Intercourse wrote:You should follow my lead.
Yet... you're still quoting 20 year old jaded, emotional interviews that leave a lot of what goes on out of the public eye for the sake keeping things private for solidarity, because we know that it's always the case that they're going to be honest with an interviewer during the shit, to push your version of what went down...and I'll even ignore throwing out the barbs. But no, I don't think I will follow your lead.
Quoting the actual members of the band rather than preaching your own mostly unproved (but obviously highly valued) version of events seems like a sounder way to explore what really happend.
My way avoids exactly the kind of "my Dad stuff" you accuse me of.
If this was all so jaded, boring and tiring to you, you'd not have bothered with the significant (and often quite angry in places) replies.
I'll stick with what these people actually said, and you can choose your version. Its just fucking around on a fourm in the end. No harm no foul.
#64 Re: Guns N' Roses » Time for the reunion » 572 weeks ago
This has been the biggest thing that has plagued me in my love of Slash. I WANT TO LOVE Slash... but I just don't. Most of his work leaves ALOT to be desired, and unlike quite a few of the Slashites around here, one great guitar solo in a song, surrounded by shit, does not make it a great song--period.
Slash just refuses to surround himself (not counting Winwood, Cox & Mitchell) by talented enough people. Imagine Chris Cornell & Slash, Jerry Cantrell, and maybe Jeff Ament or someone and Dave Grohl on a full album as a group. That's what i'm talking about. I LOVED IT when Slash performed with Lemmy & Ozzy. Perfect blend for his guitar, but these guys ain't just pretenders, they are rock Gods. These guys know what they are doing.
Slash to me just always comes across as preferring to perform with literally the kind of bands that Sammy fucking Hagar would perform with, and imo that holds him back. Especially his ecclectic taste in vocalists.
This is EXACTLY where I stand with Slash as a performer. A group with Cantrell, Cornell, Slash, Duff and Grohl would for me be the ultimate opportunity for him to raise his game back to the level he operated on in the Axl days.
I have bought and do listen to Slash's albums but find myself just like Axlin, always that creeping feeling of being a little under-fucking-whelmed. I feel exactly the same about CD, hence my monomania about a reunion. It;s the A+S = FUCK ME! equation that I miss.
#65 Re: Dust N' Bones & Cyborg Slunks » Slash's Bent to Fly » 572 weeks ago
This is BETTER.
Not cleaving my world yet in two but that chorus was stuck in my head after one listen.
Really looking forward to going running with this album in my ears and letting it sink in.
#66 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 572 weeks ago
PS: When Slash was high on junk and hammered, he was still better guitar than DJ.
#67 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 572 weeks ago
I think you can't really understate how junked/wasted the band was. Smoking Guns posted this video a little while ago...the only person that has any sort of composure is Axl. It looks like he tries to take the interview seriously, meanwhile Slash is comparing his cock to a Heineken bottle and AIDS then throwing it and smashing it across the room.
I have no dog in this fight, certainly not as much as anybody, but when posting quotes from someone like Izzy (who was apparently so much of a junkie they had to turn his amps down before he quit) I think you need to remember the context. Just like you have to remember Axl's general insanity when considering what he says.
I fully agree Flash, since I'm off using Izzy quotes lets not ignore this one..
"I stopped everything (drugs and alcohol) a year before leaving the band. So, during this year, I attended the spectacle of my friends killing themselves. I didn`t want to be an accomplice to that, I didn`t want to wake up one day next to Slash`s corpse telling myself that indirectly, I`d participated in it. And so, I left."
Izzy quit GNR as much because the guys were out of control as Axl was trying to take full control.
I guess I didn't make my point well enough for ID and Axlin, that story that Axl used about him taking GNR as the guys killing themselves never saw the light of day until that interview with Del what - 20 years later?
When Axl referenced Izzy leaving he said this:
"MUSICIAN: Does that take something out of the band? It seems as if Guns N' Roses has gone from being a shared vision to being your vision. Is that fair?
AXL: Yeah, it's somewhat fair. That's definitely the case with Izzy. Izzy wanted the financial rewards and the power rewards of my vision. Izzy's vision was much smaller. The other guys in the band just thought I was crazy. In order to make certain things happen, certain people had to think certain ideas were completely their own. I definitely knew what I wanted. I didn't know quite how to get there. And sometimes the only way to have everybody going the same place is to allow them to think that they're the ones who thought of it. It's not so much that way anymore and it's been real difficult to uncover that reality. It's been hard for people to accept. But it has been a basic reality of Guns N' Roses since the beginning. It just wasn't seen. Because I wasn't someone who had all the answers and all the plans, I just had a vision. I wasn't necessarily someone that people wanted to follow blindly and say, "He's got the plan, let's go." I've finally earned respect from Duff and Slash that wasn't necessarily fully there before. And Slash and I, more than anyone else, are very much a team."
Note the use of the words "power rewards" by Axl.
He also stated in Rolling Stone in 1992:
"My personal belief is that Izzy never really wanted something this big. There were responsibilities that Izzy didn't want to deal with. He didn't want to work at the standards that Slash and I set for ourselves."
You also have this quote from Axl from the same time frame..(RIP Mag Oct 1992)..
EL: When you and Slash aren't at each other's throats, you're really a force to be reckoned with.
AXL: Let me say something about us being at each other's throats: We haven't really been that way in the past year and a half. I love the guy. We're like opposite poles of energy, and we balance each other out. We push each other to work harder and complement each other that way. We had a run-in in Dayton [Ohio], because both myself and Dougie thought he said something shitty to me onstage. That was the night I cut my hand to the bone. Backstage we have monitors much like the ones onstage, and while I was back there dealing with my hand, I thought I heard him take a potshot at me. I wrapped my hand up in a towel and was like, "Let's get it taken care of, so I can finish the show." I came back onstage and was a dick to him and told him I'd kick his f?!king ass in front of 20,000 people. That was f?!ked up. I was wrong, and I apologized the second I realized I was mistaken. Someone who is supporting me as strongly as he does is a hand I never want to bite.
My point is that Axl's words from back in the day indicate that he and Slash were very much on the same page and Slash was delivering to his level of satisfaction.
Posters here can make up any conclusions they like but these are quotes that flat out disprove Axl's more recent statements...and he was the SOBER one back then!!
#68 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 573 weeks ago
Yes, Axl's the villain. He's the bad guy. It was all his fault. If that makes you feel better, for whatever reason, there you go.
You sound pissed off, that was not my intention.
I'm, not on anybody's side, just using quotes from those that were there to try to establish where the truth is.
Its been done to death but there's not much to discuss these days.
I could give two shits about Slash & Axl on a personal level, compared to the rest of us they have an embarrassment of riches and good luck.
You should follow my lead.
#69 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 573 weeks ago
Quotes from Izzy, the man who was there...
During our first concert in London (Donnington), kids died during the show. What the f**k is that? Is that rock `n` roll? It`s to have fun and then read in the newspaper of an airport that kids died during your concert? It`s fun to play in stadiums every evening and to start a riot in Saint Louis because the singer threw a fit? You really manage at some point to say to yourself: "none of this is funny anymore."
"It`s very important, and I have to say that since 1985, Alan Niven always dealt admirably with me. When he was fired by GN’R, that really annoyed me, and that definitely precipitated my decision to leave the band. What`s more, Niven knows rock music like the back of his hand, and that counts for a lot..."
Push finally came to shove in the fall after GN' R completed the first European leg of the tour. Stradlin says he confronted Rose and the band with some changes he felt had to be made "for the sake of the livelihood of the band." One of them was ending the chronic lateness of the shows. Stradlin even went so far as to propose that the responsible party should be fined. That was the last straw.
"It was really fucked that it even had to come into play, to base something like that on money," Stradlin grumbles. "But the reality was that it was bumming me out, to be waiting there because someone else is late. It's just not fair to the audience, to the other band members. And the crew! When you go on three hours late, that's three hours less sleep they get."
"I expressed my feeling to Axl," he continues, "and the very next night on MTV I saw that I was going to be replaced by the guy in Jane's Addiction. So I took that as an indication that I'd really pissed him off."
Stradlin insists that he never wanted to quit GN' R and pursue a solo career. "But Axl made it clear that he was going to do things his way, and there was no space for debate," he says.
#70 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum open to Playing with Current GNR Line-up » 573 weeks ago
First of all, thanks guys for the kind words, it meant alot and put me in great form yesterday!
Second, I empathise with Slash and the others alot becuase I had (and lost) a record deal because the most talented guy in the band (and my oldest and closest friend too), became a very similar character to Axl in alot of ways. When you are trying to realise a dream and you are exhausted trying to manage somebody who seems happy to upend the whole thing for a million different illogical reasons, and yet he's too good at what he does musically to fire, you soon find yourself high and drunk all day because it takes the knot out of your stomach and lets you sleep and stops you beating the shit out of him.
ID just to reply to your mail and continue exploring this topic (for the millionth time I know but sure what the hell...)
I would talk about the other members drug abuse and their own self destructive, irresponsible attitudes, that had much more to do with the disintegration and disillusionment. One thing that's overlooked of what Axl has said was that he had a real fear that one or several of the band members were going to die, which was a REAL possibility
Sure, Duff and Slash had real issues with substances but I remember Gilby talking about the band drinking coctails to try to stay calm as the booing started in the arena because Axl was late and not even on site.
That kind of brinksmanship takes a massive toll on people. Axl has never even acknowledged the anger Izzy & Slash had with him sabotaging gigs and cauising riots. Has he ever apologised for those who got hurt back then? That's not a rhetorical question by the way, I just don't recall ever hearing an apology from the man to his bandmates or his fans for the consequences of him abusing his position as the key stone of the whole fucking tour's operation.
Anyway, if he was so worried why didin't he offer to stop coming on late and storming off in return for a more measured use of drugs and alcohol by the band? The guys all stated their frustrations about Axl's issues in measured tones in the press but only once backing the Rolling Stones do I recall Axl calling out his band for their behaviour.
Lets say both sides were wrong... a strong and fair manager would have sorted this with a few size tens up each ass, a slap, a hug and some therapy. Instead Axl had a yes man installed who wanted GNR for Axl and himself so it never happened.
There's always seemed to be real resentment that the other guys left Axl to be the adult in the room when it came to business aspects, that he had to be the one to "carry the briefcase", that he had to learn the business and the legalities, while they were getting blasted
This is just not true, read the Rolling Stones interviews with Axl from the UYI tour, Slash was and remainded core to all business dealings with Axl, until things started to fall apart at the end where Doug & Axl pushed Slash to the side. In fact, in the early days it was Slash who did all the business stuff, Axl was reclusive and left that shit alone, only getting an interest when real success came. Most of Axl's lawsuits at the time were to do with him personally and not the band.
Niven having an big impact with his paranoia, as Axl has said, where there was a real threat of management trying to oust Axl from the band
I always point to the fact that Izzy stayed with Niven after GNR; Izzy was sober, measured, critical of all sides (Slash & Axl) and one of the creators of GNR so I consider him the only true impartial from that time. Him staying with Niven endorses Niven to me. I choose to believe Niven had "GNR" as his vested interest not Axl. As a good manager, he saw one guy fucking it up for for the many and he explored the idea of getting rid of the one to save the rest. That's just good analytical business thinking nothing more. Of course, it would have spelt a disasterous end for GNR as Axl was the nuclear bomb of talent in the band but Niven's arms length thinking was spot on. A good manager always ensures that each band ego understands that Nobody is bigger than the band. Of course Axl disagreed and his actions, and after '93 he proved he actually did believe he was bigger than the band. Niven can be neither lauded or despised for his role because we were not there but look where GNR went after he got sacked..20 years in the wilderness.
They signed the papers. They could have said no. They could have sued (something they are not afraid to do). They didn't. It's that simple. They can't even get their stories straight on how it happened.
Have you ever been so beaten down by someone that you have just given up and walked away, to hell with the consequences? I have, I'm sure many here have.
Fans should consider that these were still very young men, addicted to drugs, probably very tired from touring, isolated and sick of living with each other, sepearted by hangers on, managers and other low lifes, filling their heads with lies, struggling to stay on the monster that GNR became. All of them got it wrong here, BADLY wrong, but when you consider the circumstances they were in mentally and physically its hardly surprising.
Airline Pilots have killed hundreds of people when they are tired, flying planes in ways their trainers could never understand. Imagine trying to read legal documents in twice as bad a condition?
I'm not saying Axl is an angel, and didn't have a hand in it, I just have a hard time believing it was all on Axl and that he didn't have a legit reason for what he did. As more time passes I'm giving him more the benefit of the doubt.
[I'm not saying Axl was a devil either but lets be scientific, EVERY band member talked about his dictatorial attitude. A sober Izzy and a sober Duff and a sober Matt referenced it many times. Niven mentioned it. The evidence is there from credible sources. I think the "worried they'd die" stuff is crass to say the least. Where were the interventions? Duff went after a dealer with a gun to try to stop him selling dope to Steven, these guys used to help each other. Not this time...not one word.
A Slash GN'R wouldn't have happened for a simple reason: Slash saw himself as his own commodity and brand. I think Sash would've made like one GN'R album and moved on to being Slash, because he's Slash
Pure speculation. Slash loves the band dynamic, he's stated it countless times in interviews. He stated that the solo thing only became a driver after his fall out with Scott, he'd had enough of the lead singer drama. Sure he has his image and brand, so does James Hetfield, that's quite a seperate thing from being solo. If Axl had stayed, Slash would have too. I don't think Slash ever stopped appreciating what Axl brought to the table musically and in terms of his massive persona.
Slash did what, 7 years in GNR and 7 in VR? His record speaks for itself. What Slash wanted of GNR was AC/DC II / Rolling Stones career trajectory, not a solo gig.
Slash told that Axl refused to do a solo project because Guns was his solo project
That was the beginning of the end. Watch old interviews with Axl, he is ferocious in his defence of GNR. It was "his" band back then too, but every guy was an integral part, loved and defended to the last. Suddenly Axl had the world at his feet, and all options became open to him as an artist - very exciting for sure. I am speculating here but his fascination with NIN and Trent obviously led him to look at how Trent ran his creative and business affairs. I think Axl figured he'd have a bit of that for GNR. And here we are.
VR seemed to be a fuck you to Axl and that they could make it without him... I never got the feeling Slash's heart was ever in VR, tbh
I'm sure after 15 years, these grown up family men probably did VR for more than a school yard revenge move...$$$$ probably figured more heavily! BUT I'm sure they enjoyed the fact that the old band showed Axl that in two short years they ciuld remerge and show the world they still had the chops to reinvent themselves as a hugely successful modern rock act. I think Slash's heart was in it initially but personally I get the feeling he never liked Scott or his work so he stayed to enjoy the success and kudos, but you're right I didn't see the right chemistry. Great band in their day live though...hold shit!!
I think too much romanticism of the old days is clouding this debate. Hey, I'm from the American south, I know all about trying to romanticize shit that's not as pretty as you'd like to think. And it comes down to guys not getting along and no longer wanting to work together. That's what it comes down to. And one guy who wanted that name more than the others
You know, that's probably the sanest and most measured summary of the whole affair. I don't believe anything was romantic per say but when you look back at that old band in interviews and live on stage (I'm talking AFD days) that was the nearest thing to rock n roll perfection I have ever seen in my 44 years. I miss that band and those times every day.