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#51 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 414 weeks ago

Smoking Guns wrote:

If you want to go after Trump for this, fine, but be willing to go after all offenders on this.

Fine by me, let's just not forget that one of the offenders is the sitting president, shall we?

#52 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 414 weeks ago

Randall Flagg wrote:

And to the point, what information was received?  If no transfer took place, ignoring the loose interpretation of value, absolutely nothing of value was transferred.

Attempting to commit a crime is not illegal as long as you fail? Is that your argument? The fact that the Trump campaign is basically a bunch of bumbling buffoons is NOT a good reason to let them off the hook.

#53 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 414 weeks ago

Smoking Guns wrote:
TheMole wrote:
Randall Flagg wrote:

Again, what is true?  That Jr met with a lawyer from Russia. Yep. That he knew she allegedly had dirt on Clinton?  Yep.
100% agreed. What crime is committed based on these truths?

IANAL, but... according to Title XI, Chapter I, Subchapter A, Section 110.20 of the election law as per the Counsel for Foreign Relations ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20 ):

Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election.

Opposition research clearly qualifies as a thing of value, IMHO.

Of course, the quoted paragraph doesn't imply wrongdoing on Trump Jr's part yet, but...

(4)Knowingly means that a person must:

(i) Have actual knowledge that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national;

(ii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is a substantial probability that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national; or

(iii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national, but the person failed to conduct a reasonable inquiry.

I'm pretty sure no sane person will argue that Trump Jr. did not know the information came from a foreign national, so clearly - if you accept the premise that opposition research holds value - he committed a crime by replying the way he did and by not reporting this to authorities.

Is this the same thing the DNC/Clinton did with Ukrain in Oppo research against Trump?

If equally damning proof of this exists, then yes, absolutely, no doubt. Why does it matter though? "She did it too" is not a valid defense.

#54 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 414 weeks ago

Randall Flagg wrote:

Again, what is true?  That Jr met with a lawyer from Russia. Yep. That he knew she allegedly had dirt on Clinton?  Yep.
100% agreed. What crime is committed based on these truths?

IANAL, but... according to Title XI, Chapter I, Subchapter A, Section 110.20 of the election law as per the Counsel for Foreign Relations ( https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/11/110.20 ):

Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in connection with any Federal, State, or local election.

Opposition research clearly qualifies as a thing of value, IMHO.

Of course, the quoted paragraph doesn't imply wrongdoing on Trump Jr's part yet, but...

(4)Knowingly means that a person must:

(i) Have actual knowledge that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national;

(ii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is a substantial probability that the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national; or

(iii) Be aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national, but the person failed to conduct a reasonable inquiry.

I'm pretty sure no sane person will argue that Trump Jr. did not know the information came from a foreign national, so clearly - if you accept the premise that opposition research holds value - he committed a crime by replying the way he did and by not reporting this to authorities.

#55 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 417 weeks ago

James Lofton wrote:
TheMole wrote:

I was in Moscow last week-end, enjoying a brief vacation (beautiful city by the way, I'd recommend a visit if you ever have the chance). I found the following display in one of the many, many souvenir shops on Arbat Street (apologies for the quality of the pic, my phone's lens is badly scratched):
https://preview.ibb.co/feVaA5/2017_06_12_16_33_51.jpg

smile

I just thought it was funny, not saying this means anything of course...

What's supposed to be wrong? If its to insinuate a cult of personality, I'd disagree. That is probably a tourist trap and every person on the planet knows who Putin is. if you're going to buy a shotglass or coffee mug in Russia, nothing better than Putin to sell the merch.

Did you buy one?

Now if he starts showing up on all their vodka bottles there might be a problem....

I probably should've said this in the original post because of how bad the pic really is, but if you look at the mugs in the lower right-hand corner you can see Trump and Melania mugs there as well. Somehow I don't think the Obamas featured on one of those mugs when they were the first couple.

But like I said, I wasn't really trying to make a point, I just thought it was funny.

#56 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 418 weeks ago

I was in Moscow last week-end, enjoying a brief vacation (beautiful city by the way, I'd recommend a visit if you ever have the chance). I found the following display in one of the many, many souvenir shops on Arbat Street (apologies for the quality of the pic, my phone's lens is badly scratched):
2017_06_12_16_33_51.jpg

smile

I just thought it was funny, not saying this means anything of course...

#57 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 420 weeks ago

Randall Flagg wrote:

So long as we ageee no politician who relies on science they don't understand or appeal to some ideology they can't defend with logic. So any politician advocating a $15 minimum wage or free college for all should resign, agree?

At least the benefits of a $15 mimimum wage and free college are debatable, religious dogma is - by definition - not. Therefore, I would say: any politician that invokes god as a reason for policy decisions should indeed resign immediately, whereas any politician "advocating a $15 minimum wage or free college for all" needs to back up their claims with statistics and logical arguments. Economics is not hard science, so the debate needs to be had; religion is dogmatic by nature, which is why we should have zero tolerance for religious arguments from those holding office.

#58 Re: The Garden » Terrorist Attack at Ariana Grande concert » 420 weeks ago

Smoking Guns wrote:

The Mole, I like you, but that was maybe the biggest load of bullshit I may have ever read in my life.  The typical "It's America's fault" is so tired and lame. How about some Fucking accountability!

Nowhere did I say it's America's fault, and I did not want to imply that I think the fuckers who commit these acts of terror are in any way not accountable for their own actions. Of course they are. BUT we (the West) need to choose how we deal with this. And we really do have a choice here: we can choose to double down on immigration laws, round up all of those dark-skinned motherfuckers that don't share our values, deport them, build a couple of walls on the border, you know... Trump-style stick-your-head-in-the-sand-and-it'll-go-away politics. Or we can rise up to the challenge and provide these kids with an alternative. Sure, we don't have to. We owe them nothing... after all, what have they ever done for us with their medieval beliefs and anti-western rhetoric? But you can bet your ass that in the long run we're all better off if we bring them into the fold, be inclusive.

#59 Re: The Garden » Terrorist Attack at Ariana Grande concert » 421 weeks ago

Yeah, let's go for more strict immigration laws, highlight the differences between us and those backwards muslims a bit more... you know, forsake any effort to bridge the ever-increasing divide 'cause reasons... ?

What a load of bullshit. Some of you really need to read up on who those radicalized muslims in Europe actually are. They're not first generation immigrants, they are not refugees, they are not uber-religious fanatics. Hell, most of them wouldn't be able to recite a Koran verse if their life depended on it. This whole crisis (the domestic muslim terrorism one, not the refugee crisis) at it's heart has nothing to do with religion, it's a bunch of disenfranchised youth looking for an identity and the fringe muslim fanatics happen to have an attractive, testosteron infused, identity to sell to them. Provide them with a more attractive alternative, and they will choose that instead, plain and simple.

It all comes from the exact same spot where all the misplaced patriotism is coming from in the US, the whole "rah rah, we're number one" bullshit that some of you seem to thrive on. These kids have made the mistake of thinking that an ideology defines who you are, that you ARE muslim or catholic, that you ARE a westerner or middle-easterner. The world would be a much better place if it weren't full of people who spouted nonsense like "I'm a christian, a conservative and a republican, in that order!". For all the talk about identity politics, THAT is a striking example right there, that's the core of the problem. People don't think for themselves, they choose an ideology and let the powers that be do the thinking for them. Everything has become a caricature of itself... we're all walking stereotypes, talking in catchphrases... ugh... so fucking depressing!

#60 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 422 weeks ago

I'm always a little bit antsy about posting comedian's interpretations of political ongoings, but it's hard not to be charmed by the way Oliver summarizes last week's happenings in this segment:

I sincerely hope we can all agree that it's super scary that weeks like this are becoming the new normal. Putting aside wether you like or dislike some of the legislative changes Trump has been pushing for last week for a minute, the fact that they go completely under the radar is just fucking insane.

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