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#151 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 205 weeks ago
Far as I can see, from a judicial standpoint, when Trump as President took home the documents to an unsecured location he in effect declassified them. Apparently they were headed for the National Archives so it doesn't sound like it could have been all that compromising, but what do I know.
For him to be charged with this smacks of lawlessness. It's like they've decided to treat him like just an ordinary citizen and everybody goes along with it.
He hasn't been charged with anything yet. He's being investigated and they got the warrant because they had probable cause that he was violating or had violated those three statutes.
If the affidavit is unsealed we'll have a better idea of what he is being investigated for having done.
Also, he is an ordinary citizen. Once he's no longer president he can be found guilty of things again and isn't immune. The declassification argument... it doesn't seem like it's supposed to work that way and seems a reckless precedent to set.
As I and others have said - we ultimately don't know a whole lot yet, can only speculate to varying extremes at the moment on what is happening and actually has happened.
My suspicion is they think they've got him on more than just holding on to documents he shouldn't hold on to because this feels like a very heavy handed approach for a crime that in the court of public opinion comes across like a nothingburger to some. Even though it's actually pretty serious if he's holding national security secrets, even DOJ has to know that if this is all it is then it looks like overkill, even if legally it's perfectly justified.
#152 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 205 weeks ago
Him being too dumb to not take the documents in the first place and him being too dumb and/or stubborn to return this is very plausible.
#153 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
I just don’t see him selling state secrets.
People were actually calling for Ivana to be dug up because they swore he buried secret evidence in her grave.
I’ll be honest, I don’t see him selling state secrets either and I don’t see him burying evidence in Ivana’s grave. Hell I never floated the idea of him selling documents, just upgraded it from unlikely to almost plausible as more news emerged.
I do think he’s involved in more than just being dumb and not returning documents. As said, this seems a heavy handed approach if that’s all this is.
My point was that Flagg dismissed the notion of him being involved in anything shady, anything to do with espionage etc. and ran down me and slashfro as being “coo coo” and then it turns out that he is being investigated for espionage.
#154 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
How is it unfounded conspiracy? Both slashfro and I said we suspect this is something shady. Like selling documents perhaps as an example. Based on the warrant, our suspicions don't seem far off.
18 USC 793 — Gathering, transmitting or losing defence information
Not sure why you're bringing up Clinton against me. I've always said that her email server was terrible. Under no circumstances should the Secretary of State have been authorising drone strikes using personal devices and a personal email.
But her getting off lightly for that doesn't make what Trump is under investigation of any more admissible and ok.
You say that this isn't comparable espionage... he's literally under investigation for violating the Espionage Act. Stop denying reality.
#155 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
Oh look, the warrant leaked.
One of the things he’s under investigation for is
18 USC 793 — Gathering, transmitting or losing defence information
Clearly it was insanity for anyone to suggest he might have been involved in distributing state secrets. Those folk were way off the mark.
#156 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
Let's see what the warrant says and what documents Trump had.
I said that...
Or is it because Garland said "nuclear" you assume it's something not found on Wikipedia Continue to believe all the hyperbole without anything to qualify it.
Garland didn't say anything about nuclear. WaPo are the ones reporting that he has nuclear documents. If that's true and what that means, we'll see. All I'd say is you dismissed the idea it was anything like that as fanciful, after the last 24 hours I'd upgrade that likelihood by a lot.
You're now in the same bead as SlashFro, saying Trump was going to sell these. You're just as coo coo for cocoa puffs as the people who think Democrats are fucking toddlers in Pizza shops.
Not really. Neither I or slashfro said that is what we believe, we think that happened. We're both just speculating. I'm not even speculating that is what happened, just commenting that what at first was an out there theory has becomes more plausible if recent reporting is true. And as I said in the first place - we'll see what the warrant says and what we learn over the coming days, weeks and months.
Anyway you keep ranting and talking up the danger of a violent uprising against this witchhunt and how the vegan soy boys will be crushed. Totally normal behavior... but of course you don't back the right wing crazies. You just equivocate and make excuses for them whilst condemning them and saying people on the left will have a rude awakening one day.
#157 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
We're talking about the National Archives here, no top secret blue prints to a working antimatter engine and warpdrive.
Want to walk this back? 
#158 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
So Garland did know about it and personally signed off on it.
Him saying Biden only found out when the media reported about it. I’d be shocked if that’s true. That’s said DOJ are supposed to have independence, he strictly doesn’t need to know. Still doubt there’s some conspiracy involving the WH and Dem top brass to get Trump - as mentioned by me and others, this has killed all feel good news on passing the IRA and it makes no sense politically to do that.
Also, nuclear documents! Why the hell does he have those?! Got to upgrade slashsfro theory to unlikely but plausible.
We’ll know things definitively soon.
I’d be shocked if Garland bets his legacy on this high profile & high risk approach for just document retrieval though. That would be just be a stupid thing to do. So, makes me suspect there’s something else here.
#159 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
It's complete nonsense as classified documents fall under the executive branch and the President has the power to classify or declassify anything he wants, officially or on the fly. He can take it home, do whatever he wants with it, give it to whoever he wants.
And even if he wasn't President with those powers, the last time a government official was charged with mishandling documents he got slapped with a misdemeanor and there was no FBI raid on his house. This is a former President, only a banana republic would stoop so low for political gain over some bullshit. Total witch hunt. If you haven't noticed the establishment having it in for Trump since day 1 I don't know what to tell you.
But what's the gain from this "witch hunt" here.
The Dems had a chance to be singing from the rooftops about their bill that they passed and perhaps Biden could then get something in about student loans later this month, which could give them some positive stuff to talk about going into the midterms. This raid buries all of that in the news cycle.
If this is a conspiratorial witch hunt, what are they actually gaining from it?
#160 Re: The Garden » Current Events Thread » 206 weeks ago
The conspiracy theories that this is the White House, the Dem Establishment, the "Left" using the FBI to get at Trump for political gain doesn't make much sense. It's tinfoil hat stuff.
They just passed a landmark bill delivering a lot of things their voters and base wanted about 24 hours before this happened. Instead of flooding the airwaves making a song and dance about that the news is all this.
If they wanted political gain, they'd keep the focus on finally passing something, not this.
I don't think this does anything positive for the Dems ahead of the midterms so if there is a conspiracy, the motive doesn't fit.
It's also a lose/lose on the other front like Flagg says, it's another lightning rod to rile up that end of the GOP base into believing all sorts of shit.
